# האם Tor/VNP/וכו' מהווים איום, כלומר. האם יש טעם לחסום כתובות IP
**URL:** https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455
**Category:** General
**Created:** [30 בספטמבר, 2022, 6:45am UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455 "2022-09-30T06:45:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Decorbuz](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Decorbuz)
#### Post date: [15 באוקטובר, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/21 "2022-10-15T17:35:02Z")
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> It could be an heuristic and flag the user for manual verification instead of outright blocking, so it could be aggressive in it’s identification.
Imagine doing that on a large scale though. It would be _impossible_ to keep up.
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> tor mighty be hard to identify a specific user, but it would be fair enough to put all tor users on manual verification, most forums won’t have many of them
Not if it’s one specific individual creating accounts over and over again using Tor. Also, how would it be possible to detect if a user is using Tor?
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> (sorry if to the plugin already does that, I’m mobile, didn’t check it out yet)
I don’t believe it does. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Fabio_Machado_de_Oli)
#### Post date: [15 באוקטובר, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/22 "2022-10-15T17:43:47Z")
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> Also, how would it be possible to detect if a user is using Tor?
my guess is that if the fingerprint isn’t unique to identify you, it would be almost the same for all of them
I didn’t think the possibility of it being random somehow, but if one os motivated enough to implement it that would be worth testing
if they’re too much you could try balancing your acceptance of false positives and negatives, I think it would still be better to combine it with IP than using only the IP
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### Author:  [@Decorbuz](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Decorbuz)
#### Post date: [15 באוקטובר, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/23 "2022-10-15T18:29:41Z")
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> my guess is that if the fingerprint isn’t unique to identify you, it would be almost the same for all of them
Good point, but wouldn’t the fingerprint be different depending on the relay that Tor is connected to?
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> I didn’t think the possibility of it being random somehow, but if one os motivated enough to implement it that would be worth testing
Yeah, agreed.
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> if they’re too much you could try balancing your acceptance of false positives and negatives, I think it would still be better to combine it with IP than using only the IP
Great advice! 👍
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### Author:  [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Fabio_Machado_de_Oli)
#### Post date: [15 באוקטובר, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/24 "2022-10-15T18:35:03Z")
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> Good point, but wouldn’t the fingerprint be different depending on the relay that Tor is connected to?
I dunno, but I expect it to be more manageable. A fingerprint is a lot of data you take from the browser, and you could customize how much of it must be equal or similar to be a match. All my devices would also have different fingerprints, so if I would simulate your annoying user you’d see me a few times before catching all the things ( there are still the country and provider, that is an interesting thing to test )
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### Author:  [@Decorbuz](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Decorbuz)
#### Post date: [15 באוקטובר, 2022, 11:25pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/25 "2022-10-15T23:25:56Z")
> [@Fabio\_Machado\_de\_Oli](#):
>
> A fingerprint is a lot of data you take from the browser, and you could customize how much of it must be equal or similar to be a match.
The problem is that…
> Most major web browsers now attempt to block fingerprinting (and circling back to the original subject of this topic, Tor is probably the most immune to fingerprinting for obvious reasons).
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### Author:  [@glimfeather](https://meta.discourse.org/u/glimfeather)
#### Post date: [16 באוקטובר, 2022, 8:21am UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/26 "2022-10-16T08:21:15Z")
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> The problem is that a _majority_ of its users are using it for malicious purposes
Where is the proof for that? If you can’t provide any then it is just your presupposition to justify your dislike of the Tor browser setup.
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> not to mention that it’s _especially_ popular for browsing the [dark web](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_web).
That has nothing to do with Discourse and therefore a _non sequitur_ to the discussion. You might just as well say that people use Internet Explorer or Edge to look for porn.
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### Author:  [@Decorbuz](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Decorbuz)
#### Post date: [16 באוקטובר, 2022, 11:16pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/27 "2022-10-16T23:16:43Z")
> [@glimfeather](#):
>
> Where is the proof for that? If you can’t provide any then it is just your presupposition to justify your dislike of the Tor browser setup.
Where is the proof _against_ it? Search for “Tor” on YouTube and take a look at the results that pop up.
All of this has nothing to do with me disliking Tor. That’s not why I started this discussion. Tor can be used by anybody (regardless of their technical knowledge) to attack Discourse communities without any way for the owner(s) to truly stop them. This is already a _massive_ issue in my own forum, and if Tor were to gain even more notoriety amongst online trolls, it could have devastating results for the various Discourse communities out there, especially the ones that are vulnerable (whether that be due to inexperience, the size of the community, or other reasons) to attacks from vitriolic people.
> [@glimfeather](#):
>
> That has nothing to do with Discourse and therefore a _non sequitur_ to the discussion. You might just as well say that people use Internet Explorer or Edge to look for porn.
That wasn’t my point. It just further solidifies that Tor is _mostly_ used by bad actors. I’m sure there are quite a few people who use Tor for legitimate reasons, but that group is generally a minority.
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### Author:  [@khenmu](https://meta.discourse.org/u/khenmu)
#### Post date: [16 באוקטובר, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/28 "2022-10-16T23:38:18Z")
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> > [@glimfeather](#):
> >
> > Where is the proof for that? If you can’t provide any then it is just your presupposition to justify your dislike of the Tor browser setup.
>
> Where is the proof _against_ it?
I don’t have a horse in this race, but I do have to say I think it is immensely discourteous to make claims and insist on others taking the time to disprove them. The onus is on the maker of the claim to substantiate their point; that is basic civility towards other participants in a discussion.
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### Author:  [@twofoursixeight](https://meta.discourse.org/u/twofoursixeight)
#### Post date: [16 באוקטובר, 2022, 11:41pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/29 "2022-10-16T23:41:23Z")
I think Tor and VPNs allow you to bypass blacklisted IPs. In order to prevent suspended users from evading their suspension, I think you should blacklist VPNs. (I am not sure if suspensions are by IP or not)
Tor can also be used to browse the dark web, and probably allows you to change IPs to anything.
After reading this post a little, I discovered that Tor has an Exit and Enter Mode. I think it allows you to change the IPs like a VPN. (Not completely sure)
* * *
If anything is wrong, correct me.
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### Author:  [@glimfeather](https://meta.discourse.org/u/glimfeather)
#### Post date: [16 באוקטובר, 2022, 11:50pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/30 "2022-10-16T23:50:17Z")
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> Where is the proof _against_ it? Search for “Tor” on YouTube and take a look at the results that pop up.
Seriously! You are arguing your point from silence which is never an acceptable technique. And seriously since when has YouTube been an authorative source. It is neither credible nor reliable. You might as well quote the Daily Mail as a source for all the veracity of such claims.
> **[Wikipedia bans Daily Mail for “poor fact checking, sensationalism, flat-out...](https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/02/wikipedia-bans-daily-mail/)**
>
> Daily Mail is too unreliable and can't be used as a source, Wikipedia editors rule.
Or do your research on Facebook.
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### Author:  [@Simon\_Manning](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Simon_Manning)
#### Post date: [17 באוקטובר, 2022, 1:16pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/31 "2022-10-17T13:16:35Z")
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> > [@glimfeather](#):
> >
> > Where is the proof for that? If you can’t provide any then it is just your presupposition to justify your dislike of the Tor browser setup.
>
> Where is the proof _against_ it?
Consider this question in another context. If I allege that you have committed a crime without providing evidence, should you go to prison if you are unable to prove that you didn’t?
> [@Decorbuz](#):
>
> > [@glimfeather](#):
> >
> > > [@Decorbuz](#):
> > >
> > > not to mention that it’s _especially_ popular for browsing the [dark web](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_web).
> >
> > That has nothing to do with Discourse and therefore a _non sequitur_ to the discussion. You might just as well say that people use Internet Explorer or Edge to look for porn.
>
> That wasn’t my point. It just further solidifies that Tor is _mostly_ used by bad actors.
Browsing _a_ dark web is one of Tor’s primary features, i.e. providing access to onion services. Despite the way media typically frames it, a dark web is neither good nor evil, it is merely a network much like (and usually within) the internet.
Just like the rest of the internet, Tor’s onions contain plenty of websites for legitimate purposes and plenty of websites for nefarious purposes. I don’t have any information to suggest percentages but people choosing to access a dark web does not automatically make them bad actors.
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### Author:  [@JammyDodger](https://meta.discourse.org/u/JammyDodger)
#### Post date: [18 באוקטובר, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/are-tor-vnp-etc-a-threat-aka-is-there-any-point-to-ban-ips/240455/33 "2022-10-18T08:08:01Z")
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