# זכויות יוצרים בנוגע ליצירות ברמה גבוהה של יצירה וזכות המחיקה **URL:** \ **Category:** Community Building\ **Created:** [20 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:56pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432 "2022-07-20T14:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [23 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:10pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/51 "2022-07-23T14:10:28Z")
> [@Jonathan5](#): > > This is going off topic again **No** , not at all. _(To what extent?)_ It is a fundamental issue of major concern to any user posting something to which he/she has ownership (and copyright). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jonathan5/32/197134_2.png) [@Jonathan5](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Jonathan5)\ **Post date:** [23 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:39pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/52 "2022-07-23T14:39:44Z")
I guess it’s the MIT app inventor forum. Their terms include: > Content you submit to the forum belongs to you, and you decide what permission to give others for it. But at a minimum, you license the company to provide content that you submit to the forum to other users of the forum. **That special license allows the company to copy, publish, and analyze content you submit to the forum.** > > When content you submit is removed from the forum, whether by you or by the company, **the company’s special license ends when** the last copy disappears from the company’s backups, caches, and other systems. Other licenses you apply to content you submit, such as [Creative Commons](https://creativecommons.org/) licenses, may continue after your content is removed. Those licenses may give others, or the company itself, the right to share your content through the forum again. I’ve emphasised the bit about the licence and when it ends. It might help us understand when the licence ends (and so whether it’s revocable) in the absence of an explicit statement elsewhere. I looked online briefly about the default position when a copyright licence is not stated to be revocable or irrevocable, and didn’t really get anywhere. It seemed to vary across jurisdictions, in that it was unclear in different ways! But here’s something that should narrow down your search (emphasis in original): > ## [Disputes](https://community.appinventor.mit.edu/t/ai2-files-block-shared-scope-file-storage-cannot-read-write-text-files-to-media-folders/50966#heading--disputes) > > US law will govern any dispute related to these terms or your use of the forum. > > You and the company agree to seek injunctions related to these terms only in state or federal court in Cambridge, MA. Neither you nor the company will object to jurisdiction, forum, or venue in those courts. > > _ **Other than to seek an injunction or for claims under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, you and the company will resolve any Dispute by binding American Arbitration Association arbitration. Arbitration will follow the AAA’s Commercial Arbitration Rules and Supplementary Procedures for Consumer Related Disputes. Arbitration will happen in San Francisco, California. You will settle any dispute as an individual, and not as part of a class action or other representative proceeding, whether as the plaintiff or a class member. No arbitrator will consolidate any dispute with any other arbitration without the company’s permission.** _ > > Any arbitration award will include costs of the arbitration, reasonable attorneys’ fees, and reasonable costs for witnesses. You and the company may enter arbitration awards in any court with jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [23 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 5:55pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/53 "2022-07-23T17:55:16Z")
First of all, thank you very much for the detailed information, which is largely known to me. > [@Jonathan5](#): > > I guess it’s the MIT app inventor forum. No it is not. > It is a fundamental question for which - in my opinion - one does not have to be a lawyer in order to be able to draw its plausibility and the (actually inevitable) conclusions that can be drawn from it. ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 11:43am UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/54 "2022-07-26T11:43:27Z")
**To be more specific now** : I joined Kodular (community) in early 2019. The **only** terms (“Terms of Service”) that I acknowledged were the following: [Redirecting...](https://docs.kodular.io/terms-of-service/#user-postings) > **Screenshot** > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/meta/original/4X/2/c/6/2c6784fd96a89e89a6d8bb39398e790271fba8ba.jpeg) > The “Terms and Conditions” were only added later, as can be proven from various sources (e.g. [archive.org](http://archive.org)). → [Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/20210501000000*/https://legal.junnovate.com/kodular/tac/) > > > **Screenshot** > > > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/meta/original/4X/6/5/b/65bc254e18845fb04815dc74f44b2168b5d1fa7e.png) > > or here: [https://github.com/Kodular/kodular.github.io/blob/master/about.html](https://github.com/Kodular/kodular.github.io/blob/master/about.html) (→ Apr 20, 2022) > > > **Screenshot** > > > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/meta/original/4X/b/8/c/b8c22b03daa1462b97dd4e33443ab2243e8fa594.png) > Accordingly, I was **not aware** of any “Terms and Conditions” and had of course **not accepted** them at that time (March 2019), so that I should (now) be able to freely decide at any time which of my posts I remove. _Or am I missing something?_ ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jonathan5/32/197134_2.png) [@Jonathan5](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Jonathan5)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 1:07pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/55 "2022-07-26T13:07:51Z")
This illustrates why the original advice to speak to a lawyer was wise. A lawyer would have insisted on knowing all the relevant facts before spending time on providing advice. If you can show that you didn’t agree to the new terms – or, rather, if they can’t show that you did – then you should get what you want as the old terms specially allow it. The link to the terms on that page was changed on 3 January 2020, after you signed up: [Update about.html · Kodular/kodular.github.io@f51f018 · GitHub](https://github.com/Kodular/kodular.github.io/commit/f51f018793f8e03e34ecdc3dbad7b64d5082641f) That’s an about page, though – what was the link on the signup form? Did the new terms get circulated at any point? I don’t think Discourse has any way of enforcing agreement to updated terms and conditions. So if you agreed to the old terms on signup then they likely still apply to you. ---
**Author:** ![JammyDodger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jammydodger/32/254611_2.png) [@JammyDodger](https://meta.discourse.org/u/JammyDodger)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:08pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/56 "2022-07-26T14:08:35Z")
---
**Author:** ![JammyDodger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jammydodger/32/254611_2.png) [@JammyDodger](https://meta.discourse.org/u/JammyDodger)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:18pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/57 "2022-07-26T14:18:12Z")
Hi @Johannes_Ai2 🙂 I am unsure how I feel about the inclusion of a specific site in your examples. For now, I have unlisted this topic while I consider the issue. Ultimately, I am unsure what you wish to achieve with this topic? It seems that we are still somewhat stalled on the lack of legal advice. Is this something you intend to pursue? ---
**Author:** ![robbie.morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c5a1d2/32.png) [@robbie.morrison](https://meta.discourse.org/u/robbie.morrison)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:42pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/58 "2022-07-26T14:42:51Z")
I saw the German copyright act being cited. There is an official translation: - BMJ (2022). [_Act on Copyright and Related Rights (Urheberrechtsgesetz, UrhG) — Amendments to 23 June 2021 — Official translation_](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_urhg/englisch_urhg.pdf). Berlin, Germany: Bundesministerium der Justiz (BMJ) [Federal Ministry of Justice]. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jonathan5/32/197134_2.png) [@Jonathan5](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Jonathan5)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:51pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/59 "2022-07-26T14:51:59Z")
> [@JammyDodger](#): > > I have unlisted this topic Good plan 👍 > [@robbie.morrison](#): > > I saw the German copyright act being cited. It was, but the old terms for the specific forum state the laws of the Netherlands apply, and the new terms state Delaware (USA). There will be overlap within the domestic law of EU countries, to be fair. ---
**Author:** ![robbie.morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c5a1d2/32.png) [@robbie.morrison](https://meta.discourse.org/u/robbie.morrison)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 2:59pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/60 "2022-07-26T14:59:51Z")
> [@Jonathan5](#): > > There will be overlap within the domestic law of EU countries, to be fair. That overlap in Europe is because much of the intellectual property law came in via EU **directives** and was transposed into national law by member states. Nowadays, the European Parliament prefers to enact **regulations** which apply directly. In part, because there were delays and slippage with the two stage process. Delaware law will be considerably different, despite [WIPO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Intellectual_Property_Organization) and other harmonization efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jonathan5/32/197134_2.png) [@Jonathan5](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Jonathan5)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 3:39pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/61 "2022-07-26T15:39:08Z")
We have spent most of this topic meandering through the possible meaning of the standard Discourse terms and the potential consequences of the lack of the word “revocable”. Now it turns out the forum in question has never used the Discourse terms… The old terms of the forum explicitly give the right of deletion, and the new terms are equally clear in the other direction. > By posting your Contributions to any part of the Site or making Contributions accessible to the Site by linking your account from the Site to any of your social networking accounts, you automatically grant, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant, to us an unrestricted, unlimited, irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free, fully-paid, worldwide right, and license to host, use, copy, reproduce, disclose, sell, resell, publish, broadcast, retitle, archive, store, cache, publicly perform, publicly display, reformat, translate, transmit, excerpt (in whole or in part), and distribute such Contributions (including, without limitation, your image and voice) for any purpose, commercial, advertising, or otherwise, and to prepare derivative works of, or incorporate into other works, such Contributions, and grant and authorize sublicenses of the foregoing. Now it’s clear that even if a lawyer is consulted the advice won’t be on anything directly relevant to Discourse. It might make sense to amend the Discourse terms, but that it likely should be in a separate topic. ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 7:54pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/62 "2022-07-26T19:54:24Z")
> [@Jonathan5](#): > > The old terms of the forum explicitly give the right of deletion, and the new terms are equally clear in the other direction. **Exactly**. And from this I conclude that the new guidelines (terms) - not knowing about them in March 2019 - do not (cannot) apply to me. _I just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss anything important._ ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jonathan5/32/197134_2.png) [@Jonathan5](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Jonathan5)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 8:45pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/63 "2022-07-26T20:45:41Z")
> [@Johannes\_Ai2](#): > > And from this I conclude that the new guidelines (terms) - not knowing about them in March 2019 - do not (cannot) apply to me. Assuming that nothing happened to make them apply to you before you made any given contribution. ---
**Author:** ![robbie.morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c5a1d2/32.png) [@robbie.morrison](https://meta.discourse.org/u/robbie.morrison)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 8:49pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/64 "2022-07-26T20:49:03Z")
If this topic forks to one on **terms of service** , then I would like to see several variants on offer — including one that is “open”. As is used on the [https://forum.openmod.org](https://forum.openmod.org) in which content (text and images), data, and code are appropriately open licensed and each — along with the ToS — requires explicit consent on application. Our site footer contains that information too (scroll down on any page). ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 9:05pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/65 "2022-07-26T21:05:06Z")
> [@Jonathan5](#): > > Assuming that nothing happened to make them apply to you before you made any given contribution. So you mean that I not only have to read the ToS when concluding the contract, but also later, after the ToS have been adjusted or new terms (TaC) may have been added. You can’t really be serious that I have to check before each of my posts whether the terms and conditions have changed. _However, if that were actually the case, it would turn my understanding of the law completely upside down._ 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 9:14pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/66 "2022-07-26T21:14:18Z")
> [@robbie.morrison](#): > > Our site footer contains that information too (scroll down on any page). Do you mean this? > **Screenshot** > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/meta/original/4X/8/d/6/8d6a52202f6d68621c921cc851dee20a156a46a6.png) _If so, what do I learn from it?_ ---
**Author:** ![robbie.morrison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c5a1d2/32.png) [@robbie.morrison](https://meta.discourse.org/u/robbie.morrison)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 9:45pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/68 "2022-07-26T21:45:58Z")
> [@Johannes\_Ai2](#): > > If so, what do I learn from it? That those **public licenses** apply to the material presented on that site, broken down by type as indicated. The abbreviations used are SPDX identifiers, more here: - [SPDX License List | Software Package Data Exchange (SPDX)](https://spdx.org/licenses/) Meaning that anyone can **use and redistribute** the material from the site in **original or modified form** , subject only to the modest obligations contained in the various permissive licenses provided. The **right to deletion** applies only insofar as the site administrators (me and two others) agree with such action — and there would have to be very good reason to so. For instance, that the contributor did not have the necessary authority to apply such licenses in the first place. Alternatively, if a contributor merely wanted the material removed so they could republish it elsewhere to better advantage, then that request would be rejected. As indicated, Discourse should provide this particular legal context as an option for sites who wish to be legally “open”. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/jonathan5/32/197134_2.png) [@Jonathan5](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Jonathan5)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 9:54pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/70 "2022-07-26T21:54:04Z")
> [@Johannes\_Ai2](#): > > So you mean that “So you mean that…” (or “So you’re saying that…”) is a rhetorical device often followed by an mischaracterisation of the other person’s position, and this is no exception. ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 11:13pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/71 "2022-07-26T23:13:56Z")
> [@Jonathan5](#): > > is a rhetorical device often followed by an mischaracterisation of the other person’s position I am very familiar with rhetorical questions. However, I don’t see what you’re getting at. _So in what respect did I misunderstand you / something?_ ---
**Author:** ![Johannes\_Ai2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/meta/user_avatar/meta.discourse.org/johannes_ai2/32/250684_2.png) [@Johannes\_Ai2](https://meta.discourse.org/u/Johannes_Ai2)\ **Post date:** [26 ביולי,‏ 2022,‏ 11:23pm UTC](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432/72 "2022-07-26T23:23:39Z")
It may be that you have chosen a practicable and legally valid way to handle this for your website (forum). I can only stick to what I knew as a user of the platform (as well as a former moderator in this forum) at the time of joining and had accepted as a user agreement (due to the existing ToS). [Previous page](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432.md?page=2) [Next page](https://meta.discourse.org/t/copyright-regarding-creations-with-high-level-of-creation-and-the-right-of-deletion/233432.md?page=4)