This sounds like a perfectly reasonable compromise. (Sorry, just noticed it upon re-reading the thread). In that case, is there any possibility of prioritizing this ahead of the newer features, and postponing this deprecation until the new HTML mode is available? That way you can have your new features AND you don’t lose old users.
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This is not strictly true, BTW. Most OSes don’t peg their browser to the OS 1:1, but Firefox and Chrome in particular limit what versions can be installed on old Windows and Mac computers.
Firefox ESR won’t go beyond 115 for those machines. Chrome stops at 109. Both are getting the banner.
It isn’t just old iPhones but older desktops and laptops too, many of which are perfectly usable (if vulnerable, yes) and otherwise work fine with the boring parts of the web that boring old people still use. It’s some of those same people who are still using forums instead of, say, Discord or whatever the kids are on today. And it’s them who are getting hurt by this change that prioritizes developer experience over user needs.
Discourse, and most of the web, has been working fine without needing relative colors, lookbehinds, or sub-grids. Somehow we got by. There was always a need for new features, but that was responsibly balanced by graceful degradation, excluding users only when no alternative was possible – which shouldn’t be very often when a software’s fundamental job is to show text posts with a few images.
I know many of us techies like to stay near the front of the curve, and we’re used to chasing that ruthless bleeding edge, but it cuts both ways. In this case it’s hurting real users who rely on Discourse not just for a profitable modern experience, but for being able to stay connected to their long-time communities.
It’d be one thing if this were a critical security issue that could not otherwise be fixed. But it sounds like just a minor improvement in devex (please correct me if I’m wrong) that’s more about making future development easier and faster. In that case, does it have to be so urgent? Two weeks notice? Surely it wouldn’t do much damage to wait a few more months, put out a basic HTML
mode first, and forever make future deprecations that much more stomachable for everyone?
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I’m sorry, but Windows 8.1 is from 2013 (the release year of Discourse 1.0) and has been officially end of life for two years now .
Macos 10.14 is more recent, but its successor Catalina runs on all Mac devices released since 2015.
You simply have to draw a line somewhere.
Discourse has had high browser requirements since the start. Here’s the line from the announcement of Discourse:
Designed for hi-resolution tablets and advanced web browsers.
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Yes, but the line isn’t an arbitrary line in the sand. There’s nothing particularly magical about 5 or 10 years. Browsers adopt features incrementally, and developers can similarly balance the cost and benefit of each one they choose to use, or not.
In this case I’m arguing that the substantial cost to a small subset of users is possibly still greater than the seemingly small improvement to developer experience – especially if an alternative were available, such as postponing the features until a basic mode or theme is available.
Have you considered dual booting Linux? Or even just running it on a flash drive?
In theory from what David said about Firefox 115 that Mozilla has extended security updates for awhile yet.
It does suck when OSes and old software discontinued support. But is inevitable. This is where Linux often comes to the 
.
While not recommended as it poses security issues. I believe you can lock your discourse instance from upgrading. But then any issues/bugs will remain in place. Maybe a more advance warning of using outdated browsers could be more advertised that it will brake at some point with possible ETA.
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This literally describes the older operating systems which don’t support modern browsers.
They’re unpatched, unsupported, and wide open to exploits.
Removing (implicit) support for 9 year old devices and 15 year old operating systems is not “chasing the bleeding edge”.
The older computers can use modern browsers just fine. It’s the operating systems that users are choosing to stay on that can’t. I suggest introducing them to Ubuntu or Mint. If all they need is a web browser, this would work great. If they need more, the basics are probably already there as well.
If that’s not an option, seems there is a project out there called supermium dedicated to maintaining a modern Chromium-based browser on older Windows systems.
Neither I nor CDCK explicitly endorse this supermium project; we have no idea if this will work, trash your computer, or send all of your computer’s data to the KGB. Of course, if you care about the data on your computer, you shouldn’t be running Windows 7 / 8.
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if you cared about the data on your computer, you wouldn’t be running Windows 7 / 8.
This is a fairly offensive assertion in a community whose guidelines I see advises each poster to “be kind to your fellow community members” and encourages them to “criticise ideas, not people”. I am glad that your position and communication style do not seem to be representative of the CDCK team as a whole, and that there are plans underway to mitigate any unnecessary loss of compatibility for those in the community, who for various valid reasons, are unable to use operating systems which support updates to the recent browser versions advertised in the warning message.
Thank you for the link to supermium which is very helpful.
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This is fair and I’ve toned down my post a bit.
A lot of my frustration over this is borne by seeing too many rants[1] about “Microsoft ruined Windows after Windows 7 and I’m never going to upgrade!” and then complaints when we “stop supporting Windows 7” years after it’s no longer supported by Microsoft.
the latest one, ironically, on the Brave community itself, though that topic is where I found the supermium link ↩︎
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I am sorry but unless you’re using a very proprietary device. You can almost always boot a Linux OS. And you don’t even need to install it as there are various ways.
- Dual Boot
- Virtual Machine
- boot off of Flash drivem. Some are even designed to be a full is on a usb stick.
And Linux is free.. so cost is not an issue.
If you’re really wanting a Windows based on NT. Well there is the long project ReactOS.
If people are going to continue to run Windows XP, 7 & 8. At least use an old computer as a proxy server running Linux.
Funny thing was Windows 10 was supposed to be at one time the last Windows with moving to a supposed Rolling release. And we know that didn’t last.
The good with Linux is generally all your old programs can still work. Vs Windows that removes compatibility with even simple production programs like Print Shop etc..
You can even run old DOS programs in Linux.
Linux rarely removes compatibility with old programs. And is often due to this what keeps old hardware running long after it is abandoned either because a company has collapsed or simply moved on with new iterations & direction.
My youngest PC ATM is about 8 or 9 years old. Old Intel i5-6500 and a Ryzen 7 2700x. Also have some DDR PC computers as well.
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And also hardware, like scanners, thanks to SANE.
Without Linux, my scanner would have been only a piece of plastic for way more than 10 years! As not supported after Windows XP (I guess same problem with Macintosh), but still continuously supported by all and until latest Linux.
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As an admin of a self-hosted install, is there some way that I can disable the browser version warning (and the eventual version block)? I would prefer to let the site degrade for those on older devices instead of blocking them entirely.
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It won’t be an entirely block. Those users can’t log in nor reply, but otherwise they can read. The look will be more… minimalistic.
ليس بالنسبة لي — أنا أستخدم حاسوب حديث يعمل بشكل جيد مع Discourse. إنه للمستخدمين الآخرين في منتدى أنا جزء منه. محاولة إقناعهم بتبني Linux ربما تكون مهمة صعبة، lol. الأمر الصعب بما يكفي لإقناع والديّ والأشخاص الآخرين الذين أعرفهم بالتحويل (ثم يتعين عليك أن تلعب دور دعم فني لهم). لن أحاول إقناع غريب على الإنترنت بذلك :نظرة خفيفة:
ولكن نعم، سيكون Linux خيارًا رائعًا للمستخدمين الأكثر خبرة تقنيًا من الحواسيب القديمة. للأسف، الكثير من هؤلاء المستخدمين يستخدمون أجهزة وأنظمة تشغيل قديمة لأنهم ليسوا بارعين جدًا في التقنية، أو لأنهم مرتبطون بتفضيلاتهم.
هم أناس تقليديون وذاكرة قديمة، لكن هذا لا يعني أنني أريد استبعادهم من المجتمعات التي أنا جزء منها.
هل هذا ممكن حتى للحالات المستضافة على Discourse Cloud؟ إذا كان كذلك، فسيكون حلاً جيدًا! يبدو غير محتمل، لأنه يعني أن الإصدار السحابي سيدعم إصدارات متعددة في وقت واحد…؟
أولاً، شكراً على الرد. أقدر حقًا أنك (و الفريق ككل) على استعداد لمناقشة هذا.
بينما أنت على حق تمامًا أن أنظمة التشغيل الأقدم أكثر عرضة للمخاطر، تأتي أحيانًا ظروف المستخدمين الفرديين التي تجعل التحديثات أو تغيير أنظمة التشغيل غير عملية، خاصة قبل أقل من شهر (حيث هو أكثر بقليل من شهر، آسف لقد أخطأت الحساب). وليس الأمر كأنه في 2 مايو، سيبدأ المستخدمون الذين لا يقومون بالتحديث لأحدث نظام تشغيل بتوحيد أجهزتهم في شبكة بوت وتنفيذ تفجير. ستظل متصفقاتهم تعمل، ومعظم المواقع الإلكترونية ستظل تعمل، فقط لن يتمكنوا من المشاركة في منتديات Discourse بعد ذلك. نعم، قد يفشلون في النهاية أمام بعض الثغرات، لكن ذلك ربما يكون بعد سنوات من الآن من 1 مايو 2025.
في هذه الحالة، أنت لا تقوم فعليًا بإهمال نظام تشغيل معين أو تتبع جدول زمني محدد. أنت تضيف ثلاث ميزات متصفح محددة جدًا لا تعتبر حيوية لأي وظيفة حالية، ولن تؤثر على المستخدم بشكل فوري. يمكن حساب الألوان بشكل مختلف، والتخطيطات يمكن تقديرها بأدوات CSS أخرى، ولا أعلم ما الذي سيتم استخدام الـ “lookbehind” من أجله، لكن على الأرجح توجد حلول بديلة لذلك أيضًا.אני סבור שניגוד בין שינויים אלו לשדרוגי אבטחת מערכת ההפעלה הקריטיים אינו הוגן במיוחד; זוהי שני סוגים לגמרי של שינויים והזדקנות.
אך טענתי הפנימית כאן אינה קשורה למספר CVEs או לשורות הקוד שכל שינוי מסוים עשוי לדרוש. זה ש-Discourse מבוסס באופן יסודי על קהילה, ובמקרה הזה, ההחלטה פוגעת בקהילה למען שיפור קל בחווית המפתח — אך אנא תקן אותי אם אני טועה.
העלות לצוות Discourse ליישם מצב פרסום תואם אחורה נמדדת בדולרים ובשעות עבודה. זה מאוד מתסכל לתמוך בדפדפנים ישנים, אני יודע, ואני וכל שאר מפתחי האינטרנט שונאים את זה, ואני בטוח שגם אתה. עם זאת, העלות למשתמשים שלך במקרה זה נמדדת לא רק באי נוחות קלה, אלא באיום ממשי לבדידות ולהיות מנותק מקהילות שהם חלק משמעותי מהחיים שלהם.
Discourse הוא לא רק לפאונקים שמתווכים על ההבדלים בין Windows 7 ל-10 ולדיסטראב Linux; הוא משומש על ידי אנשים בכל הגילאים, ברחבי העולם, עם מכשירים חדישים וישנים, ורמות שונות של מיומנות טכנולוגית. וחלק מהם פשוט לא עוקבים אחר מחשבים ו-OS כפי שאנו עושים. אולי זה פחות מאשר אידיאלי, כמובן, אך אני לא מכיר את כל הסיפור שלהם…
בסוף, כן, זה נכון לחלוטין שאי אפשר לתמוך בכולם לנצח, ולבסוף בעיה בתוכנה מסוימת תכריח אותך לשדרג שבתקופה מסוימת תותיר אחוז קטן של משתמשים מאחור.
אבל שלושת הפיצ’רים הספציפיים האלה לא נראים כמו מקרה כזה. הם אכן כה דחופים וקריטיים כדי להצדיק שילוח של חלק מהמשתמשים ששימשו את התוכנה שלך במשך שנים, באמירה “יותר מדי חזק, אינך יכול יותר לפרסם אלא אם תלחץ על שליחה באימייל”?
שלושת הפיצ’רים האלה נראים לי “חוד החנית” במיוחד, במיוחד עבור תוכנת פורום שהתנהלה בסדר גמור בלעדיהם שנים. האם Discourse באמת צריך להיות יותר מראש מאשר רוב אתרי הממשלה, בנקים, ועוד; כפי שאני יכול לראות, הם שיפורים קטנים-קטנים ולא חידושים דרמטיים…
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Ah sorry, I should have been more specific… I am trying to understand the best path to retain both read and write (reply) access for users on the affected devices.
As @unknown_error highlights, the specific features the Discourse team has mentioned in this thread sound like non-critical browser abilities, and thus it should be possible to allow for a gracefully degraded page.
So, I am trying to understand the difficulty level involved in offering the existing read / write experience to the affected devices while still applying upgrades for security fixes. Perhaps there is a user agent / browser feature check that self-hosting admins can customise. Perhaps it means maintaining a fork of Discourse. I am trying to understand the level of effort involved continuing support for these browsers, as I know that multiple members of my community will be affected by this (in my view, unfortunate) decision.
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To add to @unknown_error’s valid points, we’ve seen before a difficulty in a community which has a proportion of older people who are using older iPads - possibly in an institutional setting, probably in a cost-constrained setting, where they are taking presumably acceptable risks, hopefully not attempting banking or other high-value activities, and are being disenfranchised when older browsers become unsupported.
I welcome any and all efforts to keep the forum functionality working for such cases, even if the presentation is not so slick.
My understanding of the culture in the Discourse team is that the software will always be moving aggressively forward - it’s not a consolidating or conserving kind of organisation, for better or worse. Hopefully it can show itself to be a caring culture: it’s the less fortunate who are running older browsers, for whatever set of reasons.
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Yeah even with super easy Distros like Bodhi. I would recommend watching this project Discorkie and even reach out to the DeV there. As his standalone app for Windows may work on the older window versions and as it doesn’t load html, Js, CSS from what he has said in that thread.
It may give support to still access the forums with these old OS. It is a multi discourse.forum interface that gives a bit of a discord feel.
On Linux it is available as a snap & flatpak. So the app may have all dependencies more or less built in
Being hosted not sure but not likely supported due to not being able to guarantee security and such. So likely would need to be self hosted.
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Discourse isn’t supporting the most updated Firefox ESR. I just updated that on an old Mac Mini; it updates to 115.22.0esr and I’m still seeing the message that I’ll be effectively thrown off the boards – I don’t want to just read in the Straight Dope community, I want to be able to post there.
I can’t afford a new computer. Please don’t bother telling me that a new Mac Mini is “only” $599 – I’m scraping to buy groceries.
Is it? How many people currently using message boards are upset about the current color quality?
But not log in and post, I gather. It’s not possible to be part of a community if all you can do is lurk.
Yes, indeed. Thank you, and thanks to others pointing that out.
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While only the Discourse team can provide definitive answers about their culture, I have to say, that’s not the impression I get. It seems that effectively, all major browsers are supported as long as they are supported by their developer/provider. And that seems like a reasonable and balanced approach given that overall, the web tends to move fast.
There is probably be a bit of a gray area regarding Firefox ESR 115 with it’s extended maintenance period until August, but I’m not sure how much that would help people who have users on out-of-maintenance operation systems.
So it sounds like the “real solution” would be either an LTS/ESR version of Discourse or a “maximum compatibility” version with less requirements. Which makes me - and that’s mainly why I comment - a bit worried how much development capacity it would eat up that can then not be used to develop new features and make sure that Discourse continues to evolve with the rest of the web (because I feel that is one of the reasons why Discourse has stopped the steady decline of forums, at least to a certain extent).
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זה נכון. DisCorkie לא טוען שום סוג של html בכל סוג של תצוגת אינטרנט. זה טוב כי הוא לא סובל מחוסר יציבות ופרצות כמו דפדפנים ישנים.
להיות מאוד כנה, אני לא בטוח איך זה יפעל במחשבי חלונות ישנים יותר כי לא ניסיתי בסביבה זו. אבל, תיאורטית, אתה לא צריך להתמודד עם בעיה בגלל זה
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Can you share you Mac Mini model version and your Mac OS version?
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