Sending suggestions without involving legal terms, TOS, external agencies etc


(Spirit) #1
  1. Basically I’d like to contribute to a Forum without attaching myself to other legal-speak / TOS stuff which I see as unrelated to improving parts of this site. I think we can still use Discourse in some way without all the rest.
  2. Maybe some of my point goes in how I didn’t even actually have to read all the TOS or respect it to become a user so it’s kind of a lie anyway… a known flaw in signing up that kind of actually undermines life.

I believe in Discourse! The TOS here is not that bad but maybe as I’m a fairly seasoned reader of terms and 2484 words doesn’t seem as bad on some days! The privacy policy too is a mere small essay of 735 words which also includes US law stuff, for ‘protecting ourselves’ and other consideration beyond just reading… I think can be reduced for people on the whole needing to read stuff even before writing / contributing in many ways.
I see I roped in more the Privacy policy when I started off looking at the TOS only because it’s something else to read when signing up and this post is also about the signing up process. Those who just want to suggest or do other simple stuff… un-complicate their lives… need not sign up I feel but add in another way. Using email without having to agree to everything would be a good start but even that maybe not needed and I’m sure people will have better ideas - something equivalant to a suggestion box where, like in real life, it’s rather more unattached and unconditional and terms and conditions don’t actually apply for suggestions.

Choice and unconditional giving is what this is all coming from. I choose not to be part of legal-speak, so please don’t make me when signing up to suggest something. Make another user level or something and uses this technology to reflect that it’s not just bundled bit of tech able to be used against people who don’t understand words and meaning and let others rope people into more mis-undestood on-line, mostly business schemes and methods (monetisation). Perhaps more neutrally I should say, allow it to be even more customised.
Those laws you might refer to, in another country that I feel I are one and the same circle I choose not to be part of. Dissemble it a little and let the light shine and let users decide. I think you might be pleasantly surprise and get kudos for something seemingly standardised for so long ‘I agree’ - yeah right! It may also reduce your liability and connection too.

I can see it being hard / close to impossible for you good people to achieve a balance… and maybe it’s better to cover a net over all of us but another level of user or some other way said before I think would be worth it and nothing that doesn’t exist perhaps.

##‘Old House’ or ‘Old World’ habits
We’re still locked into old habits and that’s how technology has the disadvantage of regularly imprisoning old habits and becoming standard… needs to regularly shed it’s skin, a lot. Painful but needed. Of course I don’t mind some guidelines and being moderated etc, something more towards fuelling one-way type suggestions in Discourse to start ‘another way is possible’ mentality.

###Need for legalese
I’d like to know the need of all this legal-speak for me as a user - since I don’t see it or understand it other than as a business tool (market and profit driven control) and since I don’t live under the laws of the state of California, U.S.A then even more reason. Also I’d like to see the internet more independent and run by itself in clever ways that need not external agencies… simply work and have other ways even if something is attempted by others… old sayings of terms, standards, paper and scrolls with text, mean perhaps less on the internet… and should have something revised decentralised.
Realistically, unless someone trained like lawyer talks me through some of what this all means and it’s applications it’s perhaps unneeded to me… it’s maybe more for your protection than me and the question is why do you need protection from them?

###TOS & Privacy documents / pages
I have read all the TOS and it’s actually quite short and clear… but somehow still the mention of legal stuff is unwanted / unrelated especially for writing a few suggestions. Just doesn’t seem to fit the level of interaction and users on the internet. What do you think?

By all means have a reduce account to ‘suggestion level user’ and limit what I can do and accordingly limit the potential more legal stuff. Try to not make me take all the other stuff because I wanted to do one thing good on-line…

###Main points

  • more terms and conditions = more time needed to read & more external extensions not in one’s control
  • jur-is-my-diction power battles and complications outside of Discourse / external attachments
  • responsibility - since people hardly ever read terms and companies/organisations hardly force contract of reading them / or monitor it enough visibly I feel this is deliberate and known practice - bad for both sides ultimately…

Would I care if I didn’t really care about so terms and conditions in the world and less giving or licences for giving? The detriment to mankind for such easy ‘signups’, the connection to US for everything (laws etc) seem to be more about ‘just go along with things’ or ‘just doings them to fall in line’ and 'protect one’s self…'
Hheading towards more understanding world and less law-controlled ignorant one is paramount to most freedom in a variety of context. By all means write and lean on yourselves for rules but maybe it’s gone a bit too far with the ‘Comprehensive Arbitration Rules of the Judicial Arbitration and Mediation Service, Inc.’ ! No idea!

  • What starts out as wanting to suggest or contribute to a community… end up as under-mining ourselves and the community by forcing and allowing optional a falsehood (signup or don’t). Masses of people signing up whilst the creators know how easy for user to do it without reading TOS - to avoid full understanding / confirmation of it… because many would look at that and say Err “I’m not signing that saying I understand and bow!”
  • The basis for some of the trust and understanding from people wanting to contribute is set on false structures this way so even if there are evil people wanting to mess things up for you I’m not sure how much good it does anyway (or helped you in the past?). Largely not needing external people might be a good idea or having an incremental / option way of adding functionality so if you really have to, then rope your users into rules and regulation.
  • Allowing sharing without asking people to take on the extra baggage and who we know almost certainly need more time to read and understand the TOS and PRIVACY pages / terms / meaning etc before hitting ‘I agree’ or similar.

##Thankfully there are options & technology can really help freedom
I do like the Discourse forum and don’t mean to sound attacking. The above still stands on principle, and it is compromised (legally or just based on some principles/ideas of knowing about reality).

###Not-so-tied-in
The idea of writing this came from having signed up to many things on-line in the past and not wanting to be tied in to another unless it really needed… ‘signing up’ to everything to suggest somethign is perhaps old technology :slight_smile:

###Privileges in technology
I do think I’m somewhat in a privileged position and taking things for granted, writing like I’m ungrateful which I’m not, because it might not have been so easy or perhaps well built before but now it is I think that’s really part the full circle of progression keeps a great system progressing for the better / more free / accessible… people will really speak up and rock the boat from time to time too but it’s part of cycle of solving things and actually solving life too as a larger circle (in freedom and less-conditonal technology). I don’t wish for you to die or cease work just know some things can a bit too conditional without being agree or understood properly you too can reconsider them even if it makes you a bit of a rebel!

##Sign-up without TOS being read
If you choose to stop sign-up until responsibility is understood / verified, then great up to you to really make sure… choosing where we all stand is very important bother for your own principles and ours…

I would be happy to leave suggestions for a basic account in capable hands without even needing further contact. There are people who like to go around giving freely but feel restricted.

I wouldn’t have left a suggestion (no comment if I read TOS at that point) if I didn’t really like Discourse and it’s potential. And I think this gamble on people contributing is the important bit, many don’t bother because it’s another sign-up anyway (regardless of TOS) and in effect a larger set of attachments and actions needed for just sending you a few suggestions.

##Be a pioneer / leading example if you wish
Sites and life in general could benefit from those wanting more suggestions but not wanting all the rest with it.
Discourse is really great BUT I also don’t want to get caught up in more chat (it’s my personal problems about getting carried away as it is on the Internet)… so you would be SERVING me / other users by respecting lack sign up needed by allowing 100% dedication in suggestion/contribution department… (currently I have a handful of subscribed stuff and that’s my limit, and it makes it a kind of ultimatum pushing that…

##Summary
This time I did the sign-up… many times I haven’t… it’s lose-lose perhaps… people getting caught in some else when signing up… on-line seems to be full of piggy-backing… in order to stay alive… losing our understanding and our control sometimes in the process. I’d like to be less part of that … that to say more positively to helping freedom with less attached ways of communication and contributing.

###Suggestions via links / Discourse documents
I would have personally have liked to just to drop my suggestion you guys, maybe a link to something I wrote somewhere else or document (create a Discourse doc extension?) and simply move on :slight_smile: If people want to add on the legal-stuff (especially in other countries) then so be it but as the start asking users to accept it all might be a type of diluting and confuses all of ourselves in the mix. Sometimes it is better to have internal guild-lines collected and purified from elsewhere rather than out-source your legal power through others and agencies… even if they do have power and perhaps threaten you when choosing NOT to be part of their system…


Possible to donate money to Discourse?
(Jakob Borg) #2

You can host Discourse yourself and use whatever TOS you like, including leaving it essentially blank.


(Spirit) #3

What stops me is needing the hosting company (Digital Ocean) to run Discourse. I don’t mind the payment so much but I do have problems not running it on my own host (mainly to keep my own management of data and usage values). Discourse on my own private space ensures that… but is it even possible?

Also I would still like to reply on Discourse forum without signing up to so much… and just put my email or something and drop in a suggestion, so I feel that part isn’t solved / answered quite yet.


(Mittineague) #4

AFAIK the default requirements needed to make a post are

  • email address
  • Member name
  • password

Though I think it might be a good idea in some cases to make having the “Read Guidelines” badge a requirement for some type of “promotion” last I knew members can post without reading them (even though IMHO they should)

Seems to me that the 3 fields required are necessary and and not so much

I have the feeling I’m missing your point entirely here.

Are you simply saying the Guidelines are too difficult for the average person to understand?


(Spirit) #5

Thanks, do you mean I don’t have to agree to terms and can use just those 3 fields?

That’s one main point - the other stuff is for those ‘detail heads’ who like to read more…
I also think something ‘mandatory’ etc might be great so people are bound by what they agree or contract to, and importantly don’t allow themselves so easily give rights away and go through motions that make it look at the end like they did contract or understand… for companies it’s very important but perhaps more for individuals you ‘give right / liability away’ somewhat so on one level seems legal etc but it’s actually isn’t - this makes sure the two are nearer to the reality and truth.

Also my aim is that common people see the reality of external agencies involved, laws, enforcement list amongst writings and have less space to ignore them. Understanding of components and transparency / responsibility of reading before they actually use something / software / services, and eventually if not happy with it simply have more chance to click ‘no I don’t agree’ (funny how that doesn’t exist) or find another way such as writing and moderating their own lives for themselves.

I think guidelines on Discourse ‘bad’ or ‘good’ etc, just irrelevant somewhat (with respect to me) involve a lot of other stuff which themselves are more other things that have their own terms and hard to understand or realise because it hardly relates to Discourse or the average user… and again people, if left to their own devices, could manage eventually internet space themselves and be governed by other less, or make things inherently simple and secure enough not to need higher powers…

MOSTLY this about allowing some users to avoid external groups from getting involved and potential confusion / conflict of interest with what Discourse stands for a can be (freedom - though I appreciate this is general, but think it’s achievable) and cutting down the 3rd parties or insurances with their potential problems and hi-jacking during that protection. Autonomy and more independence. That makes things really clear and sorts problems out once and for all!

I feel signing up now allows stuff to get involved in between people (and countries) - you know classic business man-in-middle-type stuff.

Internet space could be something of a separate space somewhat (though I know it’s perhaps run by companies, hence the problems continue as we need to monetise people). Really just a nice place using nice people and have nice ways even for the bad stuff.

For Discourse this means I’m asking for a simply way to submit a suggestion without much else. An email might be involved or simply a suggestions form… but not much else to complicate things or other involving other 3rd parties in Discourses terms of service / privacy policy etc. Keep it simple for simple things.


(Erlend Sogge Heggen) #6

To be completely honest with you, I didn’t read your post in its entirety because it’s incredibly long. I hope my answer doesn’t miss the mark completely, but in short:

  1. The TOS, FAQ and Privacy Policy of your site can be edited regardless of your hosting provider.
  2. If you’ve come upon something in our legal documents that strikes you as troubling, please comment on those items one at a time so that we can deal with it in bite-sized portions.

If you want to comment on Discourse without being subject to the rules of our club house, you’re free to write about us on the WWW-platform & outlet of your choice.


(Spirit) #7

No, I find that completely fine and understand the challenge of working with my length and what I mean + helping tackling of subject/idea, and any possible solution to it (etc)… quite a challenge

Some of the one liners might be good read in summary - here’s a shorter version:

Signing up and communicating with each other with more of an unconditional attachment of legal entities in between us is my aim here. Middle-men and women + the technology can be hardly unrelated, hardly understood… but still used… and seem not to make anything bad - but do, even if only from being something extra. Having a way I could suggestion something (maybe the WWW method like you said, might be good but I was looking for a way parallel to existing ‘normal’ way)

Working with the right teams, the right people working and cutting out the more abstract 3rd parties who I can hardly much reason to involve (other than getting sued by others) and can’t see how they would keep interest other than that other than collect tax, interfere with business, squeeze more profit, exercise more control.

Mostly I want to see people govern themselves in more of a self-contained way that en mass which can never reflect people and groups well. External parties will always have less mutual is not 0 interest and more interest in other things.

Sending suggestions without all the legalities would be a good start as I wasn’t sure about signing up and didn’t want to read all that - but as it happens my subject involved this so I kind of felt I had to sign up to make sure it doesn’t get lost some other way like sending an email etc.


(Neil Lalonde) #8

If you want to encourage drive-by comments, then Discourse isn’t the best platform for you. Discourse rewards reading and participation. The TOS and privacy policy are the least of it.


(Spirit) #9

Any comments are welcome for now to be honest. Refining what I mean is part of it (apologise and think that’s part of it / life). Progress in everything seems important. What’s worthwhile here might not be this but I feel it’s important. My expectations aren’t too high, you can see I have something there, but welcome those who don’t feel they have to go all in and can say a little bit about the above.


(Jay Pfaffman) #10

You can run Discourse wherever you want. The docker install is the easiest (and supported/recommended) way to do that, but you can run Discourse wherever you like.

Authenticating against Gmail (or facebook, or several others) isn’t that complicated or time-consuming. You can configure categories to allow anonymous people to reply and post if you want.


(Spirit) #11

Appreciate that. Unix based systems it seems after a few searches, I’m a basic windows user… but will keep it in mind…


(Jay Pfaffman) #12

As it turns out, running Ubuntu containers in Windows isn’t that different from running them on other OSs. As I understand it, it’s nearly impossible to run Rails under Windows.

See: