I believe that this page doesn’t need a dropdown menu (like many other pages don’t). It just adds extra clicks to the workflow, when they are not necessary. And it adds extra work.
I think that the page could just show all groups on the page automatically, with all groups set to just “See”. It doesn’t take much space, but even if it does when we create dozens of groups, it’s just a matter of scrolling.
Or for those who don’t want this and want to keep the original/current version, it would be good to have a button to “Add All Groups” for those who just want to add all groups, especially because it seems that groups are not “recursive” (if that’s the word?). Setting a permission to Trust Level 0, doesn’t automatically grant the same permission to Level 1 and above. So having to replicate a certain setting multiple times would be easier if we could just add all groups.
But the trust level groups are subsets of each other - all users in TL1 are in TL0, all users in TL2 are in TL1 and TL0 etcetera.
So it doesn’t grant the permission to the group, but it does grant it to the group members.
IMO that would be a worse user experience than having a dropdown.
Not just because of the scrolling and complete loss of overview that would occur with large sets of groups, but because your last screenshot would only need the line “everyone - see”. The rest is redundant.
You want to add a lot of friction for every time someone looks at the settings, while removing friction for the few times that someone modifies them.
I’m not sure I’m following this…?
For example if I have all the groups visible and I tick “Reply” on the everyone row, all the boxes get ticked for all groups.
So wouldn’t it make sense that if I tick “Reply” on the Trust Level 1, it would tick for all above that as well?
What would be the result of something like this, for example, if they are indeed subsets of each other?
That’s why I said it could be just an option, because each user has their own experience. For me, it makes more sense to see everything, the same way that lots of Wordpress plugins show all the roles without having to add one by one.
You misunderstood my last screenshot. That image shows the default state when going to that page for the first time and then I would tick the boxes I want. Similar to Wordpress:
I perfectly understood your screenshot, I was trying to say that 95% of it was redundant, and a lot of configurations wouldn’t make sense and be confusing.
Like this one:
It would be see/reply/create for all logged in users, the bottom line would be redundant.
Yes, that makes sense. everyone is treated in a special way, it would make sense if trust_level_X would be treated like that as well. Now that would be a good simplification of that page!
But this comes from the fact that certain checkboxes should be automatically checked based on certain rules. So it’s redundant and make no sense, because of the way the system is set up now. If I would check “Reply” on TL0 and it would automatically check everything above that, then you would never get to senseless options like the one I shared, right? That’s my point.
Another thing I don’t understand, and unless I’m missing something, this is also redundant:
At least from what I understand so far, there’s really no difference in everyone and Trust Level 0. They both require log in. When I check Reply or Create for everybody it checks all the ones above, and according to what you said, everyone on TL1 and above, is also on TL0, so wouldn’t it be the same checking Reply or Create on TL0 the same as checking it on Everybody?
The only difference I see there is the word everybody being more descriptive.
From my tests, I tried to Create, and Reply, on a logged out user, on a category set to allow everybody to Reply and Create, and it showed me the log in window.
IMO no, we could do this with three lines, we only need TL4, TL2 and TL0.
The confusing thing would be that if we remove the TL2 line, it would have a visible effect on the TL4, TL3 and TL2 lines, while in reality it has not.
I agree with you that this screen can be confusing, I just don’t think that your proposed changes are the right way to go.
Well, there you have it. There is no linear hierarchy, staff is a group that contains both admins and moderators. But your proposed layout suggests there is.
Also, for other groups (other than these automatic groups), there is no hierarchy either.
But it does make a difference for “See”, hence your statement was too generic and thus incorrect.
My proposed layout doesn’t suggest a hierarchy (at least not the first one, the default). My layout only suggests that things can be laid out without the need to doing it one by one. There’s no disagreement that if I tick TL0, everyone will have that access, so that would tick all the boxes. That doesn’t mean that if I tick something for staff, that moderators would be ticked as well, but admins would. So I just think that we could have an option to add all groups at once. Maybe it doesn’t work for you, but it works for me. That’s how my brain works. You could still have the Add Group dropdown menu. There’s nothing wrong about it, if that’s how some users like to work.
And for the groups that we create, it’s the same thing. If there’s no hierarchy, then there’s no hierarchy. There’s no difference in having all 45 groups added with a single button, or added one by one, other than the time that it takes. I believe that’s the part that you are thinking seems “deeper” than it actually is. I just wanted to have an option to set my default to “all groups visible”. That’s all. If it’s a mess to you, you don’t use it. It’s not for me and maybe for other users.
How can it make any difference on “See” if you can’t even untick any of the boxes? There’s no group where I can untick that See box, so I don’t understand why you are saying that “my” statement is generic and incorrect, when that’s how the system is set up…
Adding everyone with See → category is visible to people without logging in
Not adding everyone → category is only visible to people that have logged in
Ok, but that’s the obvious part of the process. My question is: what is the difference between everyone and TL0?
From the second half of your answer you just shared, it makes it seem that TL1 is in TL0, but TL2 is NOT in TL1 or TL0. But then in the beginning you said this:
If that’s the case, why this separation into “groups”:
Wouldn’t it be just easier to say:
Admin, Staff, Moderators are in TL4, TL3, TL2, TL1, TL0
Everyone in TL4 is in TL3, TL2, TL1, TL0
etc?
If that’s the case, then once you set Reply or Create in TL0, that’s exactly the same as setting Reply or Create in everybody, because whether you set a category to this:
it’s exactly the same. Both require login to Reply or Create. They both allow See (no group allows NO See, even custom groups). Everyone registered is in TL0, the same as all the groups combined, creates everyone.
So unless I’m missing a very important part of the puzzle, they seem the same to me. If you set a category to just TL0 See, Create, Reply ticked, or you set it to everyone also set to all boxes ticked, is there anything that you can’t do on either of those?
Doesn’t this mean that all members have the same permissions as the everyone group, to Reply or Create?
If all TL including moderators, staff, and admin can Reply and Create, and no one can ever Reply or Create without being logged in, isn’t it clear that TL0 and everyone are exactly the same?
Everyone registered is in TL0.
And people not registered / logged in are in everyone (together with everyone in TL0)
When I explain the difference
how can you still claim they’re “the same”?
Last attempt, last post in this topic for me.
The first situation: people that are not logged in cannot see the category and topics in it.
The latter situation: people that are not logged in can see the category and topics in it.
Ok, I had to test it with just TL0 and log out to understand what you mean.
I think that this section is what sounds confusing: Not adding everyone → category is only visible to people that have logged in
The way I see it, at least to make more sense to me, would be:
If the only added option is everyone, logged in and logged users can see.
If the only added option is any of the other groups, logged out users cannot see.
Regardless of the options, no one can Reply or Create.
Even though we are both saying the same thing, the “not adding everyone” was throwing me off, because it sounded like you were doing this:
The same way that TL2 includes TL1 and TL0
Or TL3 includes TL 2, TL1, and TL0
Or TL4 includes TL3, TL2, TL1, and TL0
Or any of the other groups Admin, Moderator, Staff include TL4, TL3, TL2, TL1, and TL0
Correct?
So technically, when you are logged in, having everyone or TL0 will have the same effect, because all members are part of everyone and TL0, even custom groups, right?
If that’s the case, then the only unique feature of everyone is that it allows logged out users to either See or not, because no one can Reply or Create logged out. In that case, then everyone could even be renamed logged out and the only option to tick or untick would be See, like this:
Let’s use more “practical” terms to avoid confusion. You mean “logged out users” correct? Let’s use terms that we can use for both cases. Logged In, Logged Out, if that’s what you mean by anons being logged out users.
But if that’s the case, you just said exactly what I said.
If I’m a member at TL3, that means that any category set to allow TL3, TL2, TL1, TL0, will affect me. Assuming these are the only permissions set, this one would affect me as TL3 member:
The same if it was TL1, TL2, TL3, and of course, TL4.
But not this, because it’s a level above mine:
Again, assuming I’m logged in, having this:
or this:
is exactly the same. If I’m logged in. Because all members of all groups have TL0 included.
So the only difference between these two is that if it’s set to just TL0, logged out users CANNOT see the category, whereas if it’s set to everyone, logged out users CAN see it.
Now, if by anons you mean something else, not logged out users, then there’s something else I’m not aware of.
So according to this reply, anons are in fact logged out users, so if that’s what you mean, then yes, they can’t write, but no one can (Admin, TLs, etc). You have to be logged in to write.
To make it simpler to clear this once and for all:
If I set a category ONLY to include 1 group, everyone, with all 3 boxes ticked (See, Reply, Create) which logged in users CAN’T See, Reply, or Create?
If I set a category ONLY to include 1 group, TL0, with all 3 boxes ticked (See, Reply, Create) which logged in users CAN’T See, Reply, or Create?
If your answer is: “For both options, all users from any group can See, Reply, and Create”, then we get to where I wanted to get: For logged in users, everyone and TL0 are the same. Therefore, the only difference between them is that in the first option, logged out users would be able to see the category, whereas the second option would hide the category from logged out users.
If that’s the case, that the only difference is what logged out users can see, then calling it Logged Out Users instead of everyone would make more sense. And since only logged in users can Reply or Create, having those boxes next to everyone (then renamed Logged Out Users) wouldn’t make sense.
