继续讨论 Discourse 帖子投票：
由于问答帖子的首个帖子就是问题本身，因此不应有“点赞”选项。
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这难道不是一个对主题进行优先排序的功能吗？
我同意，目前还不清楚为什么有人应该对某个主题进行投票。
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我已将您的帖子移至此处 @volanar，因为它之前已被提及。 
我以为有回复说这是故意的，但我好像找不到。我会深入挖掘一下，看看能找到什么。 
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这在很大程度上是网站偏好。对问题质量进行投票是像 Stack Overflow 这样的网站上相当成熟的功能。
我们特意保留了投票控件，通过 CSS 删除它也可以，也可以考虑添加一个网站设置。
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但是问题本身不能参与答案的投票。而且，它也不能和答案一起被过滤。它应该总是在最上面
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我想知道是否将 OP 中的样式与回复中的样式不同地设置样式会有助于表明它具有不同的含义？
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Voting on questions is something that I think is really worth discussion in the context of Discourse. I have a bit of experience with SO-like sites 
and I’d like to do a bit of thinking about whether votes are useful for questions on post-voting type topics here at all (for brevity, I’m just calling these “questions” from here on out).
You are correct that on platforms that are solely Q&A (e.g. Stack Overflow), there are specific things that question votes (up and down) are used for. In particular:
- indicating question quality or that you have the same question/can understand the need for such a question
- searching/sorting/filtering questions by score
- indicating the question is in/out of scope for the site
- hiding particularly low-quality content
- enabling deletion by non-moderator users
- rewarding/penalizing users for posting good/bad questions with reputation/karma.
As far as I’m aware, these don’t really apply to Discourse currently, whether using this plugin or not. I know the feature is relatively new but I’m curious how many of these Q&A features are things you’d want to make use of in Discourse. On the surface, it seems like a huge paradigm shift from the current trust level system and other moderation practices.
If your main goal in adding these question types is to allow communities to easily create/host their own SE-style sites where the primary purpose is more structured Q&A rather than discussions, that’s really interesting and I’d love to hear more about it… but I’ve learned a lot in my time at SO that has led me to question some of its core functionality to the point I’d outright discourage replicating many aspects of SO if I were building it from scratch.
When thinking about a hybrid system like a Discourse community running the post voting plugin would be, I don’t honestly know whether voting on questions makes sense at all. I admit that I don’t know a ton about the feature and how it’s implemented but I have poked around with it somewhat and read what posts I could here to learn about it, which has led me to this conclusion.
What value does question votes add in Discourse?
I understand the plugin has been official for less than a year and is likely still in flux. I won’t profess to be an expert in Discourse moderation, features, or scope by any stretch (feel free to correct any errors I make) but it seems that the status-quo uses different (and possibly better) solutions, which render many reasons for question scores unnecessary.
TL;DR - Read the stuff in bold.
| # | Feature | Use on SO | Use on Discourse | Useful? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Notifications for votes | Upvotes notify poster of reputation change. There isn’t a Like feature on SO. | Votes do not create a notification for the asker but Likes do. | While it’s likely easy to add upvote notifications to Discourse, why have both? Likes are one of the primary reasons question votes seem unnecessary here. [1] |
| 2 | Vote impact on askers (reputation) | Reputation is how privileges are awarded on SO and users’ reputation is a major aspect of their status. Earning rep from well-received questions is one of the only ways users who only ask questions can gain privileges. | There is nothing like reputation. Privileges are awarded through the trust level system, which emphasizes and rewards simply reading content for TL 1. Votes on Q&A style posts seem to count as Likes, which are absent from both question and answers. | The direct tie between post creation, reputation, and privileges is the aspect of SO I most wish to change. Users should have multiple avenues to earn privileges that don’t require content creation. If users don’t need question votes to earn TLs, they seem unnecessary. |
| 3 | Vote impact on askers (non-rep) | One aspect of the non-public, automatic SO recidivism system (that cannot be overridden by mods) relies in part on question score to block future questions from users who consistently post poorly-received questions. SO doesn’t have a way to require preview of content before it’s live on site. | Moderators use tooling to manually silence, suspend or override the user’s TL rather than there being any automations. There are settings that can be used to require moderator review of new posts in some cases but aren’t based on post reception. | Considering SO’s scale and prioritization of allowing anyone to ask questions, the use of automated question bans for users is understandable (though the system needs an overhaul [2]). Relying on existing TL-based post restrictions and use of flags makes question score unnecessary for user moderation. |
| 4 | Score impact on posts | Low-scoring questions are hidden from the front page and more easily deleted by trusted users or automations. Some flag types can delete the question if enough of them are received. All flags of the same type are weighted equally, regardless of who cast the flag. | There’s a robust extant system to automatically close, hide, and delete posts based on flags, which also draws moderator attention to flagged posts. Flags from users with good flagging history are weighted more than flags from users who do not. | The existing system seems incredibly well balanced. By using past flags to weight new ones, users are incentivised to be accurate in their flagging. In contrast, using un-weighted votes to hide/delete content can be misused and doesn’t take past voting into account. Relying on votes to moderate posts is unnecessary in conjunction with the existing flagging system. |
| 5 | Question sorting/ filtering | Question score, answer count, accept status are clearly indicated in all question list views. Search can use question score to filter and sort results on user request. All topics are Q&A, so no syntax is needed to find Q&A only. Search includes syntax to return questions only. | Question score isn’t shown in topic lists but solved status and response count is shown. Results can be sorted by Likes (which includes votes). There’s no way to return Q&A topics only. The in:first syntax seems like it would return questions only. |
Adding search syntax for post type (Q&A vs discussion and question vs answer/response) seems valuable, though tangential. (This feature request post to show question score on the topic list) could be useful but Likes could stand in for question score in topic lists or you could decline the FR and keep the UI as-is. |
| 6 | Upvote meaning | The question upvote hover text states “This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear”. The first half is up for debate and the second half is subjective and ambiguous. Users likely vote on questions for many reasons including, “I had the same question!”, which arguably falls under “useful” but subject experts may decide simple but common questions aren’t useful (to them) and downvote. [3] [4] | Undefined. There’s no UI directions about when to vote and that’s understandable since it’s a new feature and each community may want to encourage voting for different reasons than others. The familiar Like feature is absent in this topic format. While Likes may default to hearts only, communities can configure additional reactions. | Even in communities that manage to find consensus about when to vote, question vote reasons are frequently more subjective and broad than answer votes reasons, which almost always mean “this is correct” or “I agree with this”. Likes, particularly when communities add a variety of reaction options, can better explain why someone votes on a question than pure up/down votes. |
| 7 | Downvote meaning | Ask 10 people when to downvote a question on SO and you’ll likely get 10 different answers, half of which will be “wrong” and many would be better addressed by editing, flagging, closing, or commenting. Underuse of these features leads to askers posting on Meta to express confusion and frustration at their question being downvoted without explanation and asking that such votes be prohibited. [5] | Similarly understandably undefined. Most question issues can likely be addressed more effectively by using comments to point out actionable changes or recommendations, using the flag option on questions to DM the asker, or flagging for moderators. The default heart wouldn’t make sense with the negative connotation of downvoting. | People hate getting downvotes, even when platforms go to great lengths to avoid letting users know they were downvoted. This is often more painful for question askers, who are looking for help and being vulnerable by sharing that they’re stuck and frustrated at people they interpret as unhelpful or obstructing. Question downvotes can be the easy response but don’t help askers improve. By leaning on other tools, you encourage communication rather than alienation. |
Adapting library features to your community’s home
I recognize the urge to follow patterns established by existing platforms - particularly ones you helped build - but my big takeaway about communities on SE/SO is that most (new) users assume SE is more like a forum and frequently struggle with their first question’s reception, particularly when it comes to closure and voting. Asking questions on SO is stress-inducing for many people… the internet is full of references to SO that tell them their question will either be completely ignored or harshly judged by self-appointed platform and subject matter experts who have arcane and capricious expectations for what qualifies as a programming question… and a lot of people don’t want that.
What they have frequently stated they want was smaller, closer communities where they know people, can make connections and ask for help without being made to feel like an idiot. In a lot of ways, I think Discourse is that. By having a broader format that encourages open-ended and subjective topics while also supporting a more classical Q&A format, you allow communities to support each other the way they wish.
Even if SO were the best possible way to create and curate a knowledge library (it’s not), Discourse isn’t (and shouldn’t be) trying to be that kind of resource. Your homepage sells Discourse as “The online home for your community”. When I want my kids to feel at home, I encourage and nurture their questions and make room for them to join in the conversation. When I take them to a library, I frequently have to remind them to be quiet and prevent them from treating the shelves like a jungle gym.
In my mind, question voting is something that may be necessary for a library but probably isn’t for a home - and it may negatively impact how much people enjoy their home.
Armchair PMing time
This section is significantly less important than the giant table above, so if you haven’t read that, go read it instead. The table explains how I’m getting to this summary but will also reveal any issues due to bad info on my part - as a reminder, I’m not a Discourse expert - I keep checking to make sure I don’t write “Discord” instead.
- Remove question voting - If people really want something more like SO’s pure Q&A, it could be an setting but I’d default it to off.
- Reinstate Likes on questions - give people a friendly way to react/support questions. Consider offering some default reactions that suit questions, both positive and negative.
- I understand wanting the consistency of either Likes or votes on the same topic but I think it’s worth mixing them and Discourse users are used to likes already… in fact…
- Investigate the value of Likes on answers in addition to votes and comments. Reactions can feel more friendly than votes and some people may want to indicate more than the binary up/down without writing a comment. If votes and likes are already being used to sort search results, maybe there’s a way to use both when determining answer order - similar to flag scores in the review queue.
- Keep voting on answers - answer votes serve the primary purpose of ranking solutions to a single question and both up- and downvotes are vital, even if they may cause some stress.
I understand wanting to avoid mixing Likes and votes on the same topic. ↩︎
Anecdotally, some users may overuse downvotes on questions with the goal of getting askers q-banned sooner, which can also make it harder to get unbanned. In such systems, it’s imperative to consider unintended consequences and find ways to minimize them. ↩︎
I could give a Ted talk on question voting on SO, but I’ll say that many SO users seem to have forgotten the “library of information” concept and the “shows research effort” hover text has exacerbated that. A great library has all of the information. It’s silly to refuse adding something to your library simply because it’s in the library two towns over. ↩︎
Also, don’t even get me started on “Voting is different on meta” - though, since my solution is merging Discourse and Q&A, maybe it’d at least be on topic. ↩︎
Regardless of what people say on SO, downvotes feel personal, even if they’re not intended to be taken that way. ↩︎
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我喜欢这个比喻。我应该指出，我的家有时被当作图书馆（孩子们做家庭作业时），而图书馆有时更像游乐区（当他们举办社区活动时）。但默认设置很重要。无论好坏，Discourse 的默认设置是一个更轻松的讨论论坛。它是协作而非对抗。对于大多数 Discourse 社区来说，问答将是例外。
我喜忧参半。我确实认为踩是一种比其他方式更温和的表达异议的方式。在收到许多关于踩的抱怨后，人们最关心的是匿名的踩在连接的声誉系统中感觉不公平。人们想知道他们为什么被踩。表面上，他们想知道是为了解决问题。实际上，我怀疑大多数人想和踩的人争论，但他们没有什么可以依据的。这通常是件好事，因为这些争论很少有成效。
在 Discourse 中，踩，尤其是在问题上，与大多数论坛的协作性质不太匹配。我不确定如果不是以 Stack Overflow 为例开发，人们是否会想要问题投票。在一个理想的世界里，投票应该反映问题的质量：
- 它是否清楚地解释了问题？
- 它是否提供了足够多的上下文供他人探索问题？
- 它是否直奔主题，避免了不必要的背景信息？
- 它是否属于社区的专业领域？
严酷的现实是，问题投票往往反映了社区对问题的感受。如果你在 Stack Overflow 上询问 NullPointerException 错误，无论你问得多么好，你都会处境艰难。这个问题已经被问过一百万次了，人们没有兴趣回答另一个版本的问题。
也许这是问题投票的一个特性而不是一个 bug。如果是这样，那么当有太多问题导致社区无法跟上时，这是一个有意义的特性。它不是一个对新形成的社区或通常是协作论坛但偶尔会涉及问答的社区有帮助的特性。换句话说，我不确定问题投票对数量非常庞大的 Discourse 社区是否有帮助。所以我认为它应该是一个默认设置为“禁用”的选项。
我最近向一个正在为视频 AMA 收集问题的客户推荐了帖子投票。旧系统是根据点赞数选取排名前 X 的问题。提问者没有简单的方法来对回复提问请求的内容进行排序。帖子投票对此非常有效，因为回复是自动排序的。然而，包含的问题投票是毫无意义且令人困惑的。许多人访问社区是为了提交他们的 AMA 问题。点赞会是一个有用的信号。踩？可能是误触或对新功能的实验。我今天下午将通过 CSS 移除它。[1]
我还需要做一些其他的调整，以便它能与他们的主题配合，所以现在是修复这个烦恼的好时机。 ↩︎
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如果我想对问题本身进行投票，使用“主题投票插件”是否合适？还是我理解错了？